So I did my best to follow the Live session of “Ask Pastor John” by DesiringGod.org. You can see my comments and reactions on what was said by Dr. Piper in defense of his decision by viewing my Twitter stream, or my status feed over at Facebook.
Until the video is released in the APJ section over at the DesiringGod website, allow me to do a brief review of the crucial points of Dr. Piper’s address about this “controversy”.
Here’s the video version of the February audio clip shared by BenTerry.com on Piper’s thoughts on inviting Rick Warren to speak at the 2010 Desiring God National Conference, thanks to Jerry Bolton.
Updates from earlier today: HT
Latest News : HT
As you know the main issue with Rick Warren is the severe lack of an emphasis on sin and repentance in his messages, especially in his presentation of the Gospel (as was best displayed in his book “The Purpose Driven Life”).
Here’s a good perspective from Dr. John MacArthur:
The Gospel is the main issue and always be the main issue first and foremost especially in dealing with personalities like Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Joel Osteen, Rob Bell, and others of that stripe.
Here I hope the statement “The Gospel is a vital issue” would not be a statement that confounds our readers. I hope it is one that is held dearly in your own hearts. For with the collapse and perversion of the Gospel, all hope will be lost and we will be among all men most miserable. For what other thing can we rest our souls upon other than the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Another crucial issue is the radical downplaying of the Christian faith when placed in different contexts. When Rick Warren is invited to different secular events he finds little trouble to repackage his message to make it appealing and un-offending to the unbelieving world, i.e. Make the message distinctly un-Christian in and of itself. It may be moral still, but faithfully Christian Orthodox? No chance.
So these were the issues I expected Dr. Piper to address. Since after all, they do seem to be very important issues. Unfortunately, all that was really addressed to a very, very small degree concerning these issues that I’ve pointed out was (in my wording) “despite what is seen in Rick Warren’s preaching he still is committed to preaching repentance, though he doesn’t really use the word.”
That’s it.
Clearly Dr. Piper was, for the most part, thoroughly, thoroughly impressed with Rick Warren’s profession of reading Jonathan Edward’s Works (where he’s supposedly half way through reading). But I simply do not and cannot buy that reasoning for him to dismiss the seriousness of the issue surrounding the clarity and purity of the Gospel, that of which Rick Warren clearly perverts. It doesn’t take anyone long to find out what these perversions are just by looking around Youtube.
In the defense of John Piper though in the Q&A session, he seemed to express a genuine desire to influence Rick Warren with sound theological foundations. I applaud that. And I would think that that too was his hopes with Mark Driscoll and Douglas Wilson. But I simply cannot understand why he would jump the gun and invite Rick Warren to speak at the Desiring God National Conference, and no less? If he truly wants to influence him, why not set up a series of meetings to discuss the issues? Or perhaps labor with him in the span of a year or two through correspondence and such? Or whatever else? Why subject the flock to stumbling at the hands of one Rick Warren?
Here’s a brief post from Ingrid Schlueter at the Crosstalk Blog: HT
“.. I do think he’s deeply theological. He’s a brilliant man. He wouldn’t have the church he does or the Peace Plan, or all the influence he does and of course the greatest sentence in the Purpose Driven Life is the first one isn’t it? It’s not about you, it’s about God. The Glory of God. So I don’t think he’s emergent. At root I think he is theological and doctrinal and sound.”
~John Piper, speaking here 35 minutes in on Rick Warren and his invitation to Warren to attend his Desiring God Conference 2010
Note: Please see Pastor Bob DeWaay’s Berean Tool for the Purpose Driven Life to learn how Rick Warren’s opening sentence referred to by Piper is denied by everything in the rest of the Purpose Driven Life. John Piper has neglected to check the teachings of the book with the Scriptures which is just wrong.
Brethren, pray diligently for the sheep. And in the words of Dr. Piper himself, “we have our hope in our Sovereign God.”
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who is every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
—Hebrews 4:14-16
And of course, brethren, let us not be so proud as to say that if we were in Dr. Piper’s shoes we would do any better. Nay, apart from God’s grace we would do far worse. Let us simply pray in humble submission to God’s will and dependence to God’s grace and find comfort in the fact that He knows His sheep. He feeds His sheep. He keeps His sheep. And He layeth down His life for His sheep. The God of all the earth will do right. Rick Warren and John Piper are but men, dust of the earth. We have a Sovereign King that infallibly saves and keeps those who are His.
I agree that plenty of people might do the same in JP’s shoes, and I would hope people would be doing whatever they could to correct me, too.
Amen, Paula.
Though this is a very unfortunate time for evangelicalism at large, I praise God for keeping a discerning remnant. And I too pray your same hope, that people would do whatever they could to correct me and bring me to repentance if I too would stray from the Truth of Scripture.
First the close work with emergent church Mark Driscoll followed by a 8 month leave from ministry due to “unnamed pride?” Now his DesiringGod Conference has noted heretic prosperity Gospel, money hungry, megachurch author Rick Warren as a speaker. What’s sad is so many youth of today, pastors of tomorrow, follow Piper’s hedonist doctrine of preaching, teaching, and writings! Enough is enough John, come back to your first love!
MRWBBIII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmkk1XjrGw
• Edited by admin, please refrain from using all-caps in the comments
Not to mention how irresponsible it is to lob this bomb and then walk away washing his hands of it for 8 months and letting the wound fester. this is completely ignorant of him to do this to so many people who are probably in the midst of a purpose driven ousting from their church, or dealing with great pain from a recent one, and/or cannot find a Biblical church due to Rick Warren’s sad influence. He just thumbed his nose at all those hurting people who need him to stick up for *them* now, not for Rick Warren.
Irresponsible? A man stepping back from his ministry because he feels his soul being torn from God and his family by pride is irresponsible? Allowing that very pride to convince you that you are needed to fix the theological problems of the world is irresponsible. Piper has his priorities in order. The health of the family must always take predence over ministry (evidence? Because a failure to manage family disqualifies you for eldership, not vice versa).
That being said, was the timing of his leave poor? Maybe, but do you play ministry damage control and risk your family, or do you play family damage control and risk your ministry?
But lets be honest with ourselves about the scope of the DG conference: It would be one thing if Piper invited Osteen, Hinn, and Warren to the conference, but he didn’t. Although Warren’s gospel is theologically lacking (to the border of heresy), he is incredibly effective (Even if he does feel like a used car salesman), and I think its okay that John Piper wants to surround the man (and his talk) with sound theologians who will have opportunity to correct the wrong theology, all while figuring out why Warren is such a pragmatist. Fight for right doctrine, yes! But don’t let that get in the way of your love for your fellow brothers. And we were ALL purchased how? By His blood alone, not by our great and lofty intellects. It would do many of the Neo-Reformist camp well (myself especially included) to remember that fact.
We don’t know the full scope of the complexities behind Dr. Piper’s 8 month leave. So I do not think that we have warrant to comment on that regard. And as Matt said, Dr. Piper has his priorities in order, which is good. Family over ministry. There are many a pastor that have failed to make such a distinction which lead to weak relationships in their own homes.
Regarding the timing of his leave and ministry damage control, specifically regarding Rick Warren: I’m of the opinion that his actions in what has been done is wrong altogether. One thing I’d like to ask is if he consulted the elders in his church through a series of meetings and deliberations? Or how about consulting trusted friends/theologians on the matter? And if not, why not? I think it would be a very telling thing, what Dr. Piper would respond to these.
Matt, you seem to have too high a view of Rick Warren. The reason why he is most dangerous is because he is incredibly effective. But effective for all the right reasons? No. Numerous, numerous churches have been destroyed by the wake of PDL sweeping throughout the country. What about regeneration? Rick Warren wants to produce faithful Christian members, not faithful Christian converts, that’s the reason why he is so effective. Hence, preaching half a gospel, a false gospel, isn’t that much of a big issue with him.
I also think that it’s okay to surround Rick Warren with sound theologians, but why invite him to a conference? I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind that. Surely he can figure out why Warren is such a pragmatist through other means? But through letting him speak in a conference? I don’t buy it.
Also, on love to our neighbor and brothers in Christ (Though here I cannot deny nor accept Rick Warren as a brother. I do not know the man. But if I would take seriously the anathemas written in the book of Galatians, then I terribly fear for him.) Agreed. We should have the view and attitude that labors to correct, admonish and rebuke not rant, destroy and belittle the persons of others. So let us be firm in love, love for truth and love for Christ—this I believe is the most loving thing to do for our brethren, and everything else will fall into place.
Admittedly, my previous comment would certainly indicate that I hold Warren in high regard. I don’t. I believe, alongside you, that PDL and PDC are a plague on the already weak theological footing that we find ourselves surrounded by in Evangelical America. That being said, there are certainly many (all) Christians who don’t exactly have it all figured out theologically and doctrinally, but that doesn’t change whether or not they know and love the Lord (and on the same token, many a reformed who, in their fervent pursuit of doctrine, have lost their love and fervor for the Lord).
In light of that, our penchant to cast the label of ‘Heretic’ at whim in the general direction of those with weaker (or wrong) doctrinal statements, but who have an honest and sincere love for the Lord, might be better replaced with a desire to cultivate right theology in a heart that already loves Jesus (we love Jesus first, then we love truth).
Neither of us entirely knows Piper’s motives, but it is a legitimate possibility that this is the end Piper is begging God for, and maybe this seemed to be the only way to “trap” Warren into a setting surrounded by sound theology (pragmatist much?). What I do know is that, if Warren legitimately loves the Lord (as both John Piper and Mark Driscoll believe he does), it is our duty to lovingly rebuke toward the pursuit of our precious Jesus (and make clear the need for truth). Could Piper have done this through a longstanding one-on-one relationship? Maybe. Neither of us know the situation. But I pray that the DG conference is used by God for this purpose, as it always has been, and that maybe, just maybe, Warren’s presence there will draw in a crowd of weaker theological nature who will fall in love with the True Jesus, and not the purpose-driven ‘messiah’ sold by Warren.
I am with you on fighting for right doctrine. I am with you on fighting for correct interpretation of scripture. And most importantly, I am with you on the Gospel. It is so central that if we lose the Good News of the Resurrection, we have lost everything. I just can’t agree with the claims that Piper is possibly discrediting his entire ministry by inviting one man from outside the “theological camp” to speak at the conference he heads up. I feel like this is narrowminded. If he were inviting a Muslim or a Hindu, who deny the deity of Christ, and the necessity of His salvific sacrifice, I’d be with you. But I don’t think Warren does this or believes this.
Sorry for the wall of text. I do certainly agree with you about counsel, though. I cannot imagine that the DG conference speaker list is determined by Piper alone, but I would also like to hear some feedback from others involved in the praying-through of this decision. That being said, above all things, I trust that God is good and sovereign and that there will be rebuke, if need be, and the using of evil for good, if need be.
Well stated, Matt. I pray the same with you, for Piper, DesiringGod, the upcoming conference, and for Rick Warren.
But I still think that this really is a most dangerous move Dr. Piper has made. Let us do well to take heed to ourselves and to those around us and under us and save them from stumbling over this thing.
On “cultivating right theology on a heart that already loves Jesus”, what are your thoughts in the absence of any change in Rick Warren’s method and practice in light of receiving correction and rebuke from men like Dr. Mike Horton and various discernment organizations throughout the years?
I just cannot help but have a negative view about it. But like you, I trust that God is good and sovereign, and in the mystery of His unfailing providence He will be glorified at the end of it all.
On discrediting Dr. Piper’s entire ministry, I feel that that’s an attitude non-reformed folk are willing to quickly take (unfortunately there are those from the reformed camp who do so too), especially the informed one’s against Rick Warren. It certainly is unfair and narrowminded to do so. I would go so far as to say really dumb. But, I have to honestly say that I do not know when I can endorse Dr. Piper again in good conscience…I just pray.
Though Warren is not a blatant, open heretic or reprobate, still this is very very worrying. Especially since, if examined to it’s ultimate end, Warren’s method, preaching and practice is an entirely other religion. The only optimism I can find is in God’s providence.
In any case, as you have said, let us simply resign ourselves in our Sovereign King, He that does all things well.
Excellent perspective… totally agree and totally needed it!
Aaron,
Thank you for the kind words. Yeah… I am reminded yet again, “Let he who thinks he stands take heed, lest he falls (1 Cor 10:12).”