As much as I’ve expressed my personal disappointment with Tim Challies’ exercise of positive-neutrality in his visit to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church last year (Positive = favoring Rick Warren, despite biblical unfaithfulness. Though to be clear I am indebted with Challies’ biblical critique of RW’s ministry over the years. I am in no wise saying that he is positively endorsing Rick Warren in any way, shape or form) • HT
I want to affirm here, though, that I am allowed by Scripture to disagree with him. None of my critiques or concerns indicate that I think he is unsaved or deliberately doing things contrary to Scripture. Rather, I believe it is primarily that he and I read Scripture differently at certain points. We read the same words and come to different conclusions. If I did not believe my conclusions were the proper ones and if I did not believe they were important, I would have no reason to raise my concerns. Honestly, I feel that Warren is, in a sense, better than his theology–that with his intellect and knowledge of Scripture and expansive knowledge of what others have written, he ought to see a kind of disconnect between some of what he must believe and how this theology works itself out through his church. I wonder if he has paused to ask what Jonathan Edwards would have to say about his church, his books, his methods. So having spent time with the man and his ministry, and while granting that I saw just a brief glimpse of each, I want to affirm that there is much that seems sound but much else that bears a kind of iron-sharpening-iron kind of critique. Warren has thrust himself onto an international stage and therefore he cannot be surprised when he receives critique. If he were a small-town pastor in middle America, no one would be noticing and critiquing him. But as a pastor who prays at Presidential inaugurations and who has the ear of many world leaders, he has to expect that people will dissect his words. After all, as a Christian leader there are times when he represents all of us and there are times when hundreds of thousands of people are listening to his every word.
—Tim Challies, On Visiting Saddleback Church
I do however express my thanks in his balanced critique on the issue of John Piper inviting Rick Warren to the DesiringGod 2010 Conference: HT. He expressed well the negative nature of Rick Warren’s method and practice, and showing how polar-opposites he is with John Piper.
I do not however share this perspective of his in the preface of the main part of the post:
So much for background. But before I continue, let me offer one more word. John Piper inviting Rick Warren to speak at the conference is not that big of a deal. It matters, to be sure, but not enough to get too riled up. It’s important that we put it in its proper context. Piper did not invite Robert Schuller or the Dalai Lama, someone who outright denies the gospel. Warren professes faith in Christ and professes an evangelical understanding of that faith. Furthermore, this conference is Piper’s gig and he is free to invite whomever he wants (or whomever he is permitted within whatever structure there is inside of Desiring God). His house, his rules.
Instead, the first commenter said it right: “Actually, all of those reasons [that Tim iterated] demonstrate why, in fact, this IS a big deal.” I don’t see why Tim would make that statement. And it seems to me like he’s saying two different things where he doesn’t see that this issue isn’t that big of a deal, but he does see that Rick Warren’s unfaithfulness to Scripture is that big of a deal? I’m just left confused.
Also, I do not agree with his view on “secondary separation”, I am convinced that this is certainly an event where it is biblically warranted to exercise that doctrine. Challies states,
At yet let’s heed Piper’s warning not to fall into an error of secondary separation. There is no need for us to separate from Piper over such a decision. We have plenty of latitude to disagree with him; let’s do so with respect for him and for his long and faithful history of ministry to the church. The sky is not falling, the world will go on.
Well, just visit this Post and decide for yourself if indeed we should exercise secondary separation or not, in light of the biblical evidence.
But I’ll take it for what it’s worth, it’s a good post by Tim Challies.
Warren has proven repeatedly that he does not and will not honor the Bible. He preaches from the Bible, he knows vast amounts of Scripture and I’m sure he loves studying the Bible. But his ministry makes clear that he does not truly honorit in the way he uses it. I hardly even know where to begin here. Turn to any of Warren’s books and you will see that this is the case. Time and time again he has misused and abused the Bible. Years ago I read The Purpose Driven Life day-by-day and blogged my way through each chapter. I looked up each and every Bible reference. And in almost every chapter I found that Warren had used Scripture poorly, stretching its meaning, choosing translations that, more than being true to the text, furthered his intended meaning. This is the way he always has used Scripture and the way he continues to today. Turn to just about any review of his books and you’ll find multitudes of examples.
John Piper, on the other hand, has a long history of ministry in which he seeks to extend the utmost care to the Bible. He preaches verse-by-verse, carefully expositing the Word of God, seeking to be absolutely faithful to the text. And few preachers have done a better job of this over a long pulpit ministry.
The contrast between these two preaching styles and, even more so, these two ways of using the Bible, could not be more stark. John Piper honors the Bible, Rick Warren very often does not. What frustrates me is that I know Warren knows better! For some reason he does not seem offended by what he must know is his own misuse of the Bible.
This is not to say that with his invitation Piper has endorsed such a way of understanding and using the Bible. And yet by inviting Warren he seems to implicitly downplay its significance. This differs, at least in my mind, from inviting a Presbyterian to a Baptist conference. In that case, the Baptist may say, “I disagree with your theology in this, but I understand that you have been faithful to Scripture, at least in the way you understand it, in coming to this conclusion.” We can affirm that a person can come to wrong conclusions even while honoring the Bible. But I don’t think we can say this about Rick Warren. He abuses the Bible and does so habitually.
I am persuaded that this matters. I can’t think of another speaker Piper has invited to one of his conferences who uses and misuses the Bible the way Warren does. This is not about Warren being a 5-point Calvinist–I think there ought to be room for non-Reformed speakers at such conferences. But that is a whole different topic. My concern here is the way he treats Scripture.
Read the whole thing: HT
What i think is this, do not judge, because you will be judge by the same standard you judge, that’s what Jesus said, so if any one is holy and just and have more knowledge of the bible than John Piper, please judge him with the bible, but if not then you will be judged to a standard your not yet leaving with, and probably going into hell if you never reach it. Do not judge, see, learn, read, try to understand, be patience, pray and then the Lord will reveal the wickedness of the matter if any. But i think John Piper is doing it for a personal reason that he had taken into prayer to God.
May God bless you, and keep you.
Hello Jorge, thank you for the comment and welcome to N.D.!
You do remember however that the same inspired text of Scripture does tell us to judge with right judgment [John 7:24]?
And in your saying "please judge him with the bible", are you suggesting that any or all of the points raised are not defenses drawn from Scripture?
I'm interested on your view on this matter. Also, please read this post as it is somewhat my final address on the issue concerning John Piper and Rick Warren: [link].
Sorry if i was not clear…”if any one is holy and just and have more knowledge of the bible than John Piper, please judge him with the bible” the IF and it is a big IF, is important, IF you consider your self holy and just (like a God, that is) AND you surpass John Piper’s knowledge of the bible THEN you can judge him. And it is truth what you said with the bible i mean biblical, that is as you said with right judgment, love, patience, etc… and i am speaking to people that said that he is wrong in inviting R. warren and some considering not a good preacher anymore, or so i heard in some blogs.
I will read the link you sent me.
I am using the passage Mathew 7:1-5.
Sorry for not being clear but this is the first time i wrote on a blog.
Thanks, God bless.
See, the reason why I asked, and the reason why I raised John 7:24 in comparison with the text of Matthew 7:1-5, is that if you view the teaching of Matt 7 as a general restrictive on all forms of judgments [especially since there is no one holy and just like God], it should therefore follow that we cannot in any way even pass judgment to law breakers. Neither can we judge cults like the LDS or the Watch Tower and Tract Society (JW). Neither can we say that Benny Hinn is a false teacher.
The Bible teaches us however to judge, but under logical and reasonable conditions.
1. It must not be hypocritical/biased/uninformed judging [Matt 7:1-5]
2. It must be in righteous judgment. That being, in accord with the Scriptures.
Also, if we restrict judgment on false teachers, that is discerning if they are false or not, we are barred from obeying Biblical passages such as what is tought in 1 Tim 6, among others.
Judging, or rather the exercise of discernment is a Biblical exercise. It is taught and practiced by Jesus Himself as well as the Apostles.
There are a few questions that one must ask with regards to Rick Warren and his ministry:
1. Are being being brought from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light? If yes, then we praise God.
Sure, you might argue that is only ‘half’ the gospel and because he is not being strictly true to Scriptures, the people are missing out on many blessings here on earth.
But ultimately, they are being saved from the pits of hell. Of course, you could argue predestination and suggest that they would be regardless of Rick Warrens ministry but then we start veering off-track.
2. Are you teaching and preaching according to the Scripture? If so then that’s fantastic and you would do better then to spend more of your time on your blog expounding the Scriptures, rather than discrediting others who might not do as good a job as you.
Your job is to suggest ‘correct’ interpretations of Scriptures where Scripture has been widely mis-understood.
Peter, thanks for your comment and welcome to N.D.!
First of all you do realize that his preaching of “half” a gospel is a really serious issue? The book of Galatians tells us volumes concerning that matter. Also, is there genuine reason for us to believe that Saddleback church does produce regenerate believers through the preaching of a false gospel? Of course, we cannot give any definite response, since it is still the work of God. But Scripture does tell us that it is a doubtful fact since it is through the foolishness of the message preached [faithfully, first and foremost] that pleases God to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).
Secondly, I’m baffled as how you can say that blog posts like this is an act of “discrediting others who might not do as good a job as ‘me’”. The only reason I can see is that you actually do not see the ramifications of Dr. Piper’s actions. Please take the time and visit Apprising.org at least and be informed on the situation. If that’s not the case then are we to say that any practice of discernment that does ultimately discredit others is in fact a sinful act, and should be avoided at all costs? I’m sure you would agree that Scripture does tell us otherwise, Paul speaks much of that in his letters to Timothy, also in Jude’s short epistle.
Lastly, I do however agree that more time and effort must be spent in the exposition of the Scriptures, but I hope you did understand too that this post is filed under asides. That being, it was never intended to be a fully informative blog post. It’s intended to be a blog post that either shares information from around the net, or sharing a brief insight on things.
In any case, I sincerely think that your emphasis on the exposition of the Word of God must be heeded by all. And I thank you for that. It’s very easy to expose crooked sticks, but it’s quite another thing to exult the truth of God’s Word.
Thanks for your answer, God bless, you are indeed correct, i know we can pass judgment to false teachers, i did not reason the first condition enough, i apologize, i humble my self in learning the Lord’s word, still i think Mathew 7 in my second condition is still valid, you can not judge some one how you know has more knowledge than you, because we may not be wise enough to judge correctly or righteous or maybe without love. I was not trying to deny doing judgment i was trying not to do it so lightly.
God bless.
Thank you for your kindness, Jorge.
I think there’s validity in your second condition as well, but I still cannot say that the only people who can judge a person like John Piper are those who have studied more than him and are [in a way] better Christians than him. ‘Coz if this is the case who of us then can tell the Pope that papal authority is wrong and unbiblical? Who of our laypeople can tell the Jehovah’s Witness missionary that they are professing a false religion? Since these people as compared to the average Christian (even to those exposed to a fair amount of theology) are very, very learned people. I hope you get my point.
But yes, you said it rightly, we indeed must not do discernment or the judging of other’s actions lightly. It must after all be taken with the utmost care and love. We are not simply dealing with issues that are disconnected from the lives of people. But issues that does have far reaching effects even to the smallest degree to most. Also, it is a very easy thing to not have a heart of compassion and love when dealing with these issues. I think even the best of us forget that any defense of the Gospel of our Lord must not be detached from heart dipped in Gospel love. That is, our passion for defending the purity of God’s Gospel must flow through that fundamental principle of Gospel love that esteems others as better than ourselves. And more than all that, a vital humility before the Word and presence of God Himself.
Amen!
Sorry but in the first block i think you are suggesting that the Pope or Jehovah witnesses are Christians? Sorry but for me, knowing theology is one thing and being a christian is another ( i may failed to addressed “knowledge” only in the meaning of being already a true christian), not all who say to me Lord, Lord will enter in the kingdom of heaven, so for me they are not Christians.
But i do understand your point.
God bless.
O dear, not at all! I believe, like you do, that there is nothing but lostness and bondage in their religions.
Amen, brother.
God bless you and keep you in the fullness of our Lord Christ Jesus.
Thanks brother.
It has been helpful and constructive.